What traits denote an "advanced student?"  I've plenty of students that come in and have a 12.9 on their TABE placement and yet can't adequately pass the GED Practice test. Additionally, I've students that come in at 9.0 or better and can't pass the practice test either yet by definition, anyone in our program at 11.0 or better is considered "advanced".  Fast tracking a student simply to increase outcomes really seems unfair to the student. Putting a student in the drivers seat should also mean you give the student all the information they need to drive the DISTANCE - you make sure they can read the road map rather than just giving them directions for the short trip. What happens if Avenue A is closed and they have to take an alternate route? They need the skills to succeed not only in the short term but also the long.  Students who attain their GED for a job requirement also need to really be taught how to look at the long term implications of the job market and their GED ONLY avenue. In rural areas - at least from experience here, getting a GED and stopping won't promote advancement in the job place or adequate pay over time and leaves students limited in the jobs available.  No student is going to sit in stop and go traffic if there is an easy route - at the same time, the easy route and faster route can also lead to more detrimental "accidents" because the care needed to navigate carefully was never shown - or in the case of our students, the knowledged needed to learn how to navigate the roadblocks was never given.

I can see a "fast" track as an alternative in certain cases with demonstrated knowledge exists combined with the students goals etc as long as the student can see all the options and not just the "quickest" and "easiest."

Regards
Katrina Hinson


>>> varshna.jackson at twc.state.tx.us  >>>

It may be easier to see it from the student's perspective: what is the point
of obtaining the GED?  Is it to get a job that has a minimum requirement of
a GED or HS diploma?  Is it to gain entry to higher education?  In either
case, I see a fast-track GED program as a way for more students and more
advanced students to meet their goals.  It's like the HOV lane on the
freeway during rush hour.  How many students would sit in the stop-and-go
traffic if they knew that with an additional passenger, they can take
advantage of the 'short cut' without missing their exit?  GED programs that
make the extra effort are that extra passenger.  As educators, we must be
willing to use non-traditional methods for non-traditional students.

The reference below to other agencies that operate under outcomes-based
accountability systems is real. Here is an excerpt from the Asst. Secretary
of Labor Emily DeRocco's that underscores the point I am making (link:
http://www.doleta.gov/whatsnew/Derocco_speeches/2005-09-22.cfm):

"But while much of the focus in government, in the media, and by ordinary
Americans remains on grade school and high school education, it is really
what happens after high school that determines the opportunities available
to individuals. It is the post-high school education and training where
talent development occurs. "

It is about putting students in the driver's seat.

Thanks, Varshna.
Varshna Narumanchi-Jackson
Texas Workforce Commission
Email:  varshna.jackson at twc.state.tx.us
Phone:  (512) 463-4245
Fax: (512) 463-7379
-----------------------------------------
Whatever you think you can do, or believe you can do, begin it. 
Action has magic, grace, and power in it.  Goethe


-----Original Message-----
From: assessment-bounces at dev.nifl.gov
[mailto:assessment-bounces at dev.nifl.gov] On Behalf Of PATRICIA HANDY
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:29 AM
To: djrosen at comcast.net; khinson at future-gate.com
Cc: assessment at dev.nifl.gov
Subject: Re: [Assessment] Re: Are Fast Track GED Programs a Good Investment


I have been pondering the fast track vs. in-depth education dilemma for
years so this has been a very interesting discussion. In-depth teaching
would seem to serve the student better, but my observation is that many
never reach the goal of passing the GED Test because they drop out before
getting that far. Many are willing to spend a few months in class but not
the six or more that are required to be well prepared. Even some who are
committed when they begin class are blind-sided by life circumstances beyond
their control and need to get a job, care for sick family member, etc. 

Because of all this, I have tended in recent years to lean toward fast-track
teaching, or at least "faster-track." We do get a few more graduates this
way, but I still feel unsettled about the ultimate value of this method. One
solution is for graduates to remain in class even after passing the GED
Test, with the goal of building a stronger foundation for their next step in
life. I suppose this is a transitional class, but we do not use that
designation. Only a few avail themselves of this option.

In conclusion, I have a question: Is there information available showing how
long the average student who starts at "x" level takes to be ready for the
GED Test?  We use CASAS Life Skills as our assessment tool so I would
especially like to find information based on CASAS scores, e.g. how many
hours of class time does it typically take a student with a 226 CASAS Math
score to prepare for the GED Test?  Thanks for any help you can give me on
this. Pat Handy

Pat Handy
410-749-3217
Coordinator, Wicomico County Adult Learning Center
Philmore Commons, Salisbury

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>>> khinson at future-gate.com 11/29/05 2:38 PM >>>

I just finished reading the emails related to this discussion. 
Personally, I'm not sure I like fast track programs at all although I
understand the dire need some of our students are in when it comes to
attaining their GED. It's almost as if it's a competition to "complete" the
most students, especially when like in NC, we are moving to performance
based funding.  The number of GED Graduates has a direct impact on the
amount of funding received. If what I've learned is correct, not only does
it affect the funding we have at the state level but also at the federal
level. With this kind of pressure, programs are bound to feel a strong need
to "complete" a student - regardless of how and in some cases to how well
educated the student leaves the program.  

That said, I think there is a need for a "fast track" in some cases. It
really depends on the needs and goals of the student.  That doesn't mean an
instructor should sacrifice "knowledge" for a "test". I agree with Dr.
Mumford comments in that students often are in such a hurry to "finish" that
they rush and end up not having learned anything. Sometimes that "rush"
feeling is prompted by outside factors out side of the school or basic
skills program. I've encountered Department of Social Services workers who
want a student to finish in X number of weeks or hours and who have no
knowledge or understanding that a student may not be academically ready to
do so. They don't understand that a student coming into a program at  say a
3.9 or 5.1 TABE level may or may not be able to learn everything they need
to know in such a short time span. I've encountered colleagues who commented
that if  I was worried about completion numbers and had DSS students in my
class, that if I called the social worker they'd pull them out of class and
replace them with someone who would finish. For me, it's not all about
numbers. I understand and respect the need to meet performance standards as
it relates to funding but I'm more concerned with ensuring that my students
leave my class with SKILLs not just to pass the GED Test but to make them
successful beyond my class whether they go to college or whether they enter
the workforce.

Each student that comes into my class has his or her own individual goals
and needs. If I know a student does not plan to immediately attend college
but rather to enter the workforce,  and depending on the assessment outcomes
of instructor made assessment material other than the TABE, I will work to
move a student as quickly as he or she demonstrates capability.  I
definitely don't want to hinder a student from putting a roof over his or
her head or finding a job, at the same time, I want them to be able to move
beyond a low paying, low skill minimum wage job. If they don't have a solid
foundation academically, even if they are stopping with the GED - they are
limited in terms of accessing or attaining their full potential.

AT the moment, it feels like there is no balance and a definite lack of
understanding by those that develop state and national policies  for the
process and barriers faced by an adult learner.  There seems to be a
disconnect between the classroom and the policies themselves. 

We require students to pass the Official GED Practice test. I have found
that the Practice Test is a good indicator of a students ability to pass the
GED test. My school requires that a student attain a 500 or better on the
practice test - this guideline is flexible to some degree.  In the long run,
I have been able to see that the stronger a person's practice test score the
better he/she peforms on the actual test, not all the time but the majority
of the time. Conversely, the weaker a student's practice test scores, the
weaker he/she may do.  

While there may be a need to want to see student's "employed" and
"completed"  one of the goals should also to develop an "educated citizenry"
that can actively shape his or her own future and the lives of those they
are around - to educate people to be active participants in their community,
schools, churches etc....to educate students to the voices they do have and
to teach them to use that voice proactively in their own lives and the lives
of their families - it's about giving students the necessary skills to
succeed in MULTIPLE facets of their lives.  It's NOT just about "passing the
test".  Without real knowledge
- without giving our students the skills they need to think critically,
analytically etc - we are doing them a disservice.  If all we're after is
fast tracking them towards a "GED" certificate - it would seem to me, we're
only applying a band aid to the problems associated with low literacy
skills.

That's my two cents on the issue.


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