1) NC National Guard does actively recruit  from the GED pool - both those in class and those that have not yet finished.
2) Agreed - I've run across students who aren't going to be returning to the workforce - they're retired and/or disabled and they have no real desire to go to college - they simply want the GED for a sense of fullfillment.  I've encountered house wives who had no immediate intention of entering the workforce but wanted to have their GED "just in case". 
3) This is the are that concerns me the most with "fast tracking" a student. We've already encountered the inability to pass the placement test issue or to test out of the Remedial College classes when students have barely passing GED scores or who've obtained their GED years ago and waited to attend classes for myriad reasons. When students "rush" through class simply to get to the placement test and then aren't successful - it frustrates them. I have students come back and go "well I passed the GED why can't I pass this test". It's disheartening for everyone. Or worse, students get into a classroom environment and can't keep up with the pace of the work or the expectations.  If our students don't truly learn what they are lacking, and if they have a desire to go to college, we are not meeting their goals if we send them to the next step unprepared for the rigors associated with a community college or even a university classroom.  
4/6) This is a case where I can see a fast track program as a workable solution - especially if the person has held a job for a number of years and is having to return to school b/c of policy changes within the company. I've had students that come through the program that have been in that boat - a company got bought or sold and the new management wanted everyone to have a HSD or GED. In this case,  a fast track option would work best . Again though, it depends on the goals of the student - 1) is this the only job they are ever going to hold 2) will they need to seek additional training later on down the road to get/keep a job or promotion  Ultimately, the goal I think is to make sure the students have the tools necessary to be successful in life not just one day, but future days as well. Sometimes it may mean taking the time to talk about the options with your students. It may well also depend on the age of the student. An older student may respond one way where as a younger student that gets the information on the options available to him or her may decide that they want MORE than the GED.
5) I've seen this happen as well - especially when I worked in personnel. If the job was part of an assembly line - having the HSD or GED didn't matter as long as they did well on an aptitude test that was given by the employer.  The jobs were often shift work and they had lower pay than their HSD/GED graduate counterparts in some cases. Opportunities for advancement were limited.   We have students that often go to Job Corps or who enter our program after leaving job corp and have a desire to finish what they started there. 

I'm wondering if the answers/responses to 4-6 might actually vary regionally across the country depending on the job market needes of a specific area and the availability of a diverse work environment.  I live in a very rural part of NC and the city/county I teach in is limited in terms of available jobs - thinks like meat packing plants, fast food, and assembly work along with custodial work in factories or universities.  Most of these jobs start at minimum wage through a staffing company and the employee only gets a better pay if he/she gets hired by the actual company. Even then it's not often enough to make ends meet. For them to know economic success the younger ones I have know they have to be highly skilled and trained to compete with the higer skilled jobs outside the area etc. They know they can't stop with just a GED but have to actively work to make themselves a desirable employee - for most that means some kind of post secondary education/training. 

I guess that's why I'm having trouble with the fast tracking of students....who in some cases may barely pass the GED and then get thrown into an academic environment they are not ready for. I'd rather it take a bit longer for a student to earn his or her GED and have them leave my class not just succeeding on the GED test, but knowing they've actually learned it - not just for one test but for others that may come their way.

Regards,
Katrina Hinson



>>> djrosen at comcast.net  >>>

Hello Varshna and others,

I agree that it is a good idea to look at this from a student  
perspective.  Let's identify as many actual purposes that students  
have for getting the GED, and then look at how realistic the GED goal  
is related to the purpose.  Here's a start, and I hope you and others  
will add to this:

Purposes for Getting a GED

Get the GED so I can:

1. Get into the military
In most states the GED is not accepted by most branches of the  
military but I understand that in some states this has recently  
changed, that the National Guard at least is recruiting students who  
have a GED -- and possibly without a GED on the condition that they  
get one.  If anyone has information on this, please let us know.

2. Get a GED for the personal pride of having a high school  
equivalency diploma or certificate
Getting the GED will accomplish this purpose.

3. Get a GED so I can go to college
Many colleges also require an entrance test, and many (low-scoring  
but passing) GED holders still cannot pass this entrance test.  In  
some cases the students are enrolled in developmental studies (or ESL/ 
ESOL courses).  This is often a trap for students whose college  
financial aid is used up in these courses before they are ready to  
enroll in regular courses which count toward a college certificate or  
degree.  Also there are cases where students who pass the college  
entrance requirement do not need to have a high school diploma or  
GED; so the GED is only useful in meeting this purpose if the student  
passes with high scores and is in other ways prepared for post- 
secondary work.  This is sadly borne out by the percent of GED  
holders who get a college degree (under 4%).

4. Get a GED so I can keep my job -- my employer is requiring this
Getting the GED will accomplish this purpose

5. Get a GED to enter a job training program
Getting the GED will, in most cases, accomplish this; however, in  
some cases a GED is not required to enter if the student can show  
high scores in language arts and/or math on a standardized test like  
the TABE.

6. Get a GED to advance on the job
Getting the GED will accomplish this purpose IF the employer only  
requires passing the GED.  If the employer also assumes that the GED  
holder has good oral or written communication skills, the GED may or  
may not address that issue.

If you disagree with my analysis of whether the GED will accomplish  
one of these purposes, refer to it by number and title and tell us  
all what should be added or changed.  If we get good participation on  
this, we'll have a useful document for GED teachers everywhere to  
learn from -- and if it is put on the ALE Wiki -- add to or change.

By the way, this discussion is taking place on the AAACE-NLA list,  
too, and is being archived on the ALE Wiki.  If you want to be sure  
you see all the posts, go to the ALE Wiki.

	http://wiki.literacytent.org/index.php/AleGEDiscussion

If you want to participate in all the online discussions, perhaps  
subscribe to the AAACE-NLA list, too.

David J. Rosen
djrosen at comcast.net

On Nov 30, 2005, at 11:19 AM, Jackson, Varshna wrote:

> It may be easier to see it from the student's perspective: what is  

> the point

> of obtaining the GED?  Is it to get a job that has a minimum  

> requirement of

> a GED or HS diploma?  Is it to gain entry to higher education?  In  

> either

> case, I see a fast-track GED program as a way for more students and  

> more

> advanced students to meet their goals.  It's like the HOV lane on the

> freeway during rush hour.  How many students would sit in the stop- 

> and-go

> traffic if they knew that with an additional passenger, they can take

> advantage of the 'short cut' without missing their exit?  GED  

> programs that

> make the extra effort are that extra passenger.  As educators, we  

> must be

> willing to use non-traditional methods for non-traditional students.

>

> The reference below to other agencies that operate under outcomes- 

> based

> accountability systems is real. Here is an excerpt from the Asst.  

> Secretary

> of Labor Emily DeRocco's that underscores the point I am making (link:

> http://www.doleta.gov/whatsnew/Derocco_speeches/2005-09-22.cfm):

>

> "But while much of the focus in government, in the media, and by  

> ordinary

> Americans remains on grade school and high school education, it is  

> really

> what happens after high school that determines the opportunities  

> available

> to individuals. It is the post-high school education and training  

> where

> talent development occurs. "

>

> It is about putting students in the driver's seat.

>

> Thanks, Varshna.

> Varshna Narumanchi-Jackson

> Texas Workforce Commission

> Email:  varshna.jackson at twc.state.tx.us

> Phone:  (512) 463-4245

> Fax: (512) 463-7379

> -----------------------------------------

> Whatever you think you can do, or believe you can do, begin it.

> Action has magic, grace, and power in it.  Goethe

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: assessment-bounces at dev.nifl.gov

> [mailto:assessment-bounces at dev.nifl.gov] On Behalf Of PATRICIA HANDY

> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:29 AM

> To: djrosen at comcast.net; khinson at future-gate.com

> Cc: assessment at dev.nifl.gov

> Subject: Re: [Assessment] Re: Are Fast Track GED Programs a Good  

> Investment

>

>

> I have been pondering the fast track vs. in-depth education dilemma  

> for

> years so this has been a very interesting discussion. In-depth  

> teaching

> would seem to serve the student better, but my observation is that  

> many

> never reach the goal of passing the GED Test because they drop out  

> before

> getting that far. Many are willing to spend a few months in class  

> but not

> the six or more that are required to be well prepared. Even some  

> who are

> committed when they begin class are blind-sided by life  

> circumstances beyond

> their control and need to get a job, care for sick family member, etc.

>

> Because of all this, I have tended in recent years to lean toward  

> fast-track

> teaching, or at least "faster-track." We do get a few more  

> graduates this

> way, but I still feel unsettled about the ultimate value of this  

> method. One

> solution is for graduates to remain in class even after passing the  

> GED

> Test, with the goal of building a stronger foundation for their  

> next step in

> life. I suppose this is a transitional class, but we do not use that

> designation. Only a few avail themselves of this option.

>

> In conclusion, I have a question: Is there information available  

> showing how

> long the average student who starts at "x" level takes to be ready  

> for the

> GED Test?  We use CASAS Life Skills as our assessment tool so I would

> especially like to find information based on CASAS scores, e.g. how  

> many

> hours of class time does it typically take a student with a 226  

> CASAS Math

> score to prepare for the GED Test?  Thanks for any help you can  

> give me on

> this. Pat Handy

>

> Pat Handy

> 410-749-3217

> Coordinator, Wicomico County Adult Learning Center

> Philmore Commons, Salisbury

>

> Confidentiality Note:

> This message may contain confidential information intended only for  

> the use

> of the person named above and may contain communication protected  

> by law.

> If you have received this message in error, you are hereby notified  

> that any

> dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this message is

> prohibited and you are requested to notify the sender immediately  

> at his/her

> electronic mail.

>>>> khinson at future-gate.com 11/29/05 2:38 PM >>>

> I just finished reading the emails related to this discussion.

> Personally, I'm not sure I like fast track programs at all although I

> understand the dire need some of our students are in when it comes to

> attaining their GED. It's almost as if it's a competition to  

> "complete" the

> most students, especially when like in NC, we are moving to  

> performance

> based funding.  The number of GED Graduates has a direct impact on the

> amount of funding received. If what I've learned is correct, not  

> only does

> it affect the funding we have at the state level but also at the  

> federal

> level. With this kind of pressure, programs are bound to feel a  

> strong need

> to "complete" a student - regardless of how and in some cases to  

> how well

> educated the student leaves the program.

>

> That said, I think there is a need for a "fast track" in some  

> cases. It

> really depends on the needs and goals of the student.  That doesn't  

> mean an

> instructor should sacrifice "knowledge" for a "test". I agree with Dr.

> Mumford comments in that students often are in such a hurry to  

> "finish" that

> they rush and end up not having learned anything. Sometimes that  

> "rush"

> feeling is prompted by outside factors out side of the school or basic

> skills program. I've encountered Department of Social Services  

> workers who

> want a student to finish in X number of weeks or hours and who have no

> knowledge or understanding that a student may not be academically  

> ready to

> do so. They don't understand that a student coming into a program  

> at  say a

> 3.9 or 5.1 TABE level may or may not be able to learn everything  

> they need

> to know in such a short time span. I've encountered colleagues who  

> commented

> that if  I was worried about completion numbers and had DSS  

> students in my

> class, that if I called the social worker they'd pull them out of  

> class and

> replace them with someone who would finish. For me, it's not all about

> numbers. I understand and respect the need to meet performance  

> standards as

> it relates to funding but I'm more concerned with ensuring that my  

> students

> leave my class with SKILLs not just to pass the GED Test but to  

> make them

> successful beyond my class whether they go to college or whether  

> they enter

> the workforce.

>

> Each student that comes into my class has his or her own individual  

> goals

> and needs. If I know a student does not plan to immediately attend  

> college

> but rather to enter the workforce,  and depending on the assessment  

> outcomes

> of instructor made assessment material other than the TABE, I will  

> work to

> move a student as quickly as he or she demonstrates capability.  I

> definitely don't want to hinder a student from putting a roof over  

> his or

> her head or finding a job, at the same time, I want them to be able  

> to move

> beyond a low paying, low skill minimum wage job. If they don't have  

> a solid

> foundation academically, even if they are stopping with the GED -  

> they are

> limited in terms of accessing or attaining their full potential.

>

> AT the moment, it feels like there is no balance and a definite  

> lack of

> understanding by those that develop state and national policies   

> for the

> process and barriers faced by an adult learner.  There seems to be a

> disconnect between the classroom and the policies themselves.

>

> We require students to pass the Official GED Practice test. I have  

> found

> that the Practice Test is a good indicator of a students ability to  

> pass the

> GED test. My school requires that a student attain a 500 or better  

> on the

> practice test - this guideline is flexible to some degree.  In the  

> long run,

> I have been able to see that the stronger a person's practice test  

> score the

> better he/she peforms on the actual test, not all the time but the  

> majority

> of the time. Conversely, the weaker a student's practice test  

> scores, the

> weaker he/she may do.

>

> While there may be a need to want to see student's "employed" and

> "completed"  one of the goals should also to develop an "educated  

> citizenry"

> that can actively shape his or her own future and the lives of  

> those they

> are around - to educate people to be active participants in their  

> community,

> schools, churches etc....to educate students to the voices they do  

> have and

> to teach them to use that voice proactively in their own lives and  

> the lives

> of their families - it's about giving students the necessary skills to

> succeed in MULTIPLE facets of their lives.  It's NOT just about  

> "passing the

> test".  Without real knowledge

> - without giving our students the skills they need to think  

> critically,

> analytically etc - we are doing them a disservice.  If all we're  

> after is

> fast tracking them towards a "GED" certificate - it would seem to  

> me, we're

> only applying a band aid to the problems associated with low literacy

> skills.

>

> That's my two cents on the issue.

>

>

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